Comic Book Plus Forum
Comic And Book Related => Comic Talk => Topic started by: narfstar on December 31, 2008, 04:55:52 AM
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This ad from GI in Battle #1 looks to be signed below the girl in red. Can anyone ID the art or sig.[img]http://rapidshare.com/files/178352459/GI_In_BGI_In_Battle_no.1_195305_pg24.jpg[img]
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I can't make out the sig and don't recognize the style, narf.
Sorry.
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Narf,
Please use ImageShack or Flikr or something to share a single scan.
ImageShack will even give you the links to use.
-Yoc
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Any chance the scanner (Michael?) can post a close-up scan of the signature?
It might help.
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Using his presented scan it looks as if two esses are involved.
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk117/rez100/1q1.jpg)
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk117/rez100/1q1q.jpg)
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk117/rez100/1q1q2.jpg)
Any chance the scanner (Michael?) can post a close-up scan of the signature?
It might help.
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You know if you were on CSI or the like you could clarify that instantly with a single click on the computer.
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I could do that much myself, guys,
What we need to have is a NEW scan at a higher resolution. Remember my discussions about resolution a while back? Well, the posted download jpg is only at about 200 ppi and no matter WHAT enlargement we give that file, it's still only has 200 pixels per inch and upping the resolution in Photoshop won't bring more detail to the original scan. Only someone with access to the original comic (Michael?) can provide us with say a 600 ppi scan of JUST the signature.
Maybe there are two esses, but might lead to Picasso, which isn't too likely. Still, stranger things have happened...
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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FWIW - I see "AT73530"
This might be just a story id number like Atlas used for helping accounting.
-Yoc
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heh, ya.
Was just for the sake of conversation.
Cheers
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You know if you were on CSI or the like you could clarify that instantly with a single click on the computer.
I think it only works on pictures of reflections off of cars, though. Narf, could you make another scan, but only as seen off the back bumper of an SUV?
(Or we could take the Miami approach--"clean up the image," see that it provides no useful information, then wait for the next scene, where the culprit will have been inexplicably pulled over at an unrelated traffic stop.)
Oh, and at the original size and only at that size, it looks to me like "SALDSON." I'm guessing that's not what's actually there, but someone with better knowledge of who worked where might be able to compare it to similar names.
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I am not the original scanner. I think I have that ad somewhere if I can find it and make a good scan.
I have some other art ID questions/observations. After doing a bunch of work by shop artists for what JVJ calls the Carlson comics I am starting to get a little eye for some things. I believe that it was shop policy/allowance that if someone did pencil and inks they could/should sign their work. If someone else inked their work it was not signed. I may be way off but this is a deduction based on the frequent signatures but not always signed. Examining some of JVJ's cards makes me still feel that this is a possibility.
I have been correct in identifying some artists before looking at JVJ's cards. HC Kiefer and Gerald Altman I am pretty good at and think I could learn some more. Now here is one from the gut. I looked at the cover of Camera 7 and my gut said Witty #2. I looked at Witty #2 and it is by Browner. I looked as some other Browner covers and still think I might be right. Now Jim can punch me in the gut for probably being way off as my guess does not match his at all. It is not signed so it may be inked by someone else.
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I am not the original scanner. I think I have that ad somewhere if I can find it and make a good scan.
Thanks. If I could see a close up perhaps I'd recognize the name.
I have some other art ID questions/observations. After doing a bunch of work by shop artists for what JVJ calls the Carlson comics I am starting to get a little eye for some things. I believe that it was shop policy/allowance that if someone did pencil and inks they could/should sign their work. If someone else inked their work it was not signed. I may be way off but this is a deduction based on the frequent signatures but not always signed. Examining some of JVJ's cards makes me still feel that this is a possibility.
As for the signing/not signing - it wouldn't surprise me in the least that your observations are correct. The ones that really puzzle me are the "defaced" signatures on some stories. Why sign if your boss is going to erase your signature, or perhaps it only happened at certain companies - i.e. the shop would provide the work and the customer would alter the signatures before sending the stories off to the printer.
I have been correct in identifying some artists before looking at JVJ's cards. HC Kiefer and Gerald Altman I am pretty good at and think I could learn some more. Now here is one from the gut. I looked at the cover of Camera 7 and my gut said Witty #2. I looked at Witty #2 and it is by Browner. I looked as some other Browner covers and still think I might be right. Now Jim can punch me in the gut for probably being way off as my guess does not match his at all. It is not signed so it may be inked by someone else.
I laughed out loud when I read this, narf,
I must have some fearsome reputation somewhere for you to consider one my reactions might be punching you in the gut. I know you're just kidding, but it seems like such an odd thing to say. Why shouldn't I accept your guesses/IDs as valid? I haven't looked at the books since I sent them, so I can't comment on your Browner ID now, but I'll certainly take a look and give you some feedback when the books return. (My guesses and/or IDs should be on the cards, though. What did the Camera 7 cover credit say?)
Peace [really, non-violent, no punching], Jim (|:{>
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Your Camera 7 cover ID looks like Schrotter and Blumm?. My punch in the gut was a poor joke from my saying it was a gut feeling that it made me think of Witty2. Hope to get your books packed up and in the mail tomorrow.
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Looking at the scans for Calling All Girls and a couple are signed Jeva. GCD only has a 1960 French Rin Tin Tin with Lino Jeva. Any ideas?
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Never mind. Found on whose who.
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From a signed story in Flyboy. Not in GCD or whose who
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From a signed story in Flyboy. Not in GCD or whose who
Look up George OlesEn, narf. I think that's the spelling in Flyboy, too.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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OK Jim make me look foolish. You would think with a college degree I could read :P
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My apologies, narf.
That certainly wasn't my intent. Sorry.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I think all but the last story is Hughes. Mortellero and Hughes look a lot alike but I think these are Hughes. Unfortunatly while the early issues were signed the later ones were not. I have been looking through the Battle Cry and I think I can identify Hughes, Mortellero and Flyshman fairly well on the unsigned.
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(http://narfstar.cwahi.net/ArtID/BetterA1166.jpg)(http://narfstar.cwahi.net/ArtID/BetterA1473.jpg)
(http://narfstar.cwahi.net/ArtID/BetterA906.jpg)(http://narfstar.cwahi.net/ArtID/betterA1242.jpg)
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From left to right, top to bottom, ie
1 2
3 4
#1 is Goofy Comics #42, March 1951
#2 is PROBABLY an issue of Happy Rabbit after #42. The Standard Banner display begins with Happy Comics #36 (March 1950) and I have issues 36-40. At this point the title changes to Happy Rabbit for the final eight issues. I have issues 41 and 42 and your coverless book is neither of these.
#3 is Goofy Comics #38, July 1950
#4 is PROBABLY some issue of Goofy Comics - either #40 or between #43 and 48. I have all the other issues after the Standard Banner display begins, also in issue #36 of Goofy Comics.
It IS possible that Happy Rabbit and Goofy Gander appeared in other titles from Standard, so my guesses are just that. Hope this helps. I got half of them!
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Thanks Jim that is a help. Two down and a start on the others. The other Goofy is 43 according to the title on the cover. Happy Rabbit should be one of the last two issues as the only ones without a title on the cover and does not fit the others.
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Okay, now it's my turn. Yesterday I was visiting with Bud Plant and he asked me who drew a particular story in Magazine Enterprises The United States Marines #2 from 1944. I thought it was a GREAT piece of comic art - two pieces, actually, since there was a second story in the same issue by the same artist. But I failed. I just don't know. So I'm turning to my "lifeline" here. Here's one page and a link to the six pages of the first story and two pages of the second. HELP!
(http://www.bpib.com/test/GAC/USM004.jpg)
Here's the full post: http://www.bpib.com/test/oldgood.html
Any suggestions will be seriously evaluated.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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My probably way off thoughts. First was that the one panel looked like Alex Raymond which then led to someone else who has done Flash Gordon that being Al McWilliams. I like doing this and do not mind being told I am way off. My wild guess may put someone on the right track.
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My probably way off thoughts. First was that the one panel looked like Alex Raymond which then led to someone else who has done Flash Gordon that being Al McWilliams. I like doing this and do not mind being told I am way off. My wild guess may put someone on the right track.
No, it's too "cartoony" for McWilliams (who I like a lot, too). In the 40s he was a much more serious artist. This isn't anyone with an established history in comic books (or if it is, it's early and atypical work).
Keep thinking about it. Thanks for the input.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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The second story looks less so, but the stocky figures, round heads, and lettering remind me quite a bit of Joe Shuster. Perhaps one of his assistants?
I'm probably very wrong, but starting here:
http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superart/Shustershop1.htm
The sample of Hi Mankin's Johnny Quick work seems to compare favorably.
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The second story looks less so, but the stocky figures, round heads, and lettering remind me quite a bit of Joe Shuster. Perhaps one of his assistants?
I'm probably very wrong, but starting here:
http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/superart/Shustershop1.htm
The sample of Hi Mankin's Johnny Quick work seems to compare favorably.
I can see some surface similarities, JC,
but the drawing approach is quite different and the inking is almost Joe Maneely-ish in its consistency. (Of course, the is about five years prior to Maneely's debut - at which point he was already eminently recognizable as Maneely.)
Thanks for the thoughts. While Shuster's assistants and ghosts were wonderful, I don't see any of them as being great artists. I see this person as being great - several cuts above the Mart Bailey and Ogden Whitney material that appeared elsewhere in the issues. Bailey and Whitney, before anyone objects to my not considering them "great", were solid, competent and talented, but they never pushed the "envelope" or made any major contributions to the development of the art of comic books. This artist, IMHO, had he or she lasted in comics, probably would have.
Maybe someday we'll find out who it is.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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On Minala John far right of the splash between the rocks looks like it might be some initials or sig. Can you make it out better on the original?
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Thanks for the thoughts. While Shuster's assistants and ghosts were wonderful, I don't see any of them as being great artists. I see this person as being great - several cuts above the Mart Bailey and Ogden Whitney material that appeared elsewhere in the issues. Bailey and Whitney, before anyone objects to my not considering them "great", were solid, competent and talented, but they never pushed the "envelope" or made any major contributions to the development of the art of comic books. This artist, IMHO, had he or she lasted in comics, probably would have.
You're right that this guy was darn good, wherever he came from. I was wondering if possibly this was someone trying to "spread his wings," which sounds like someone who might have felt stuck working in a shop. Maybe someone who only did this once, because it took too long.
(I'm reminded of the time I got to speak with Fred Hembeck. We spoke for quite a while about why he only rarely did "serious" work, when he's so very good with composition. His response boiled down to it taking too long for what seems mediocre, rather than being at the top of the humor game with much less work.)
While I was typing, though, I lost my main train of thought, which was that it looked to me as if the person either was inspired by Shuster or perhaps was Shuster's own inspiration. I doubt that helps substantially, though.
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On Minala John far right of the splash between the rocks looks like it might be some initials or sig. Can you make it out better on the original?
Wish it were so, narf,
but, alas, it's just random ink strokes.
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You're right that this guy was darn good, wherever he came from. I was wondering if possibly this was someone trying to "spread his wings," which sounds like someone who might have felt stuck working in a shop. Maybe someone who only did this once, because it took too long.
While I was typing, though, I lost my main train of thought, which was that it looked to me as if the person either was inspired by Shuster or perhaps was Shuster's own inspiration. I doubt that helps substantially, though.
Yes, jc, the "spreading his wings" analogy makes sense to me, too. The artist appears in issues 3 and 4, also, so its not a one-off. Given the dates, it's possible he was a WWII casualty. I've never seen him (I use the masculine pronoun simply for convenience) elsewhere, before or since.
He's long after Shuster, so there's no chance of him being an inspiration for JS. Personally, I don't see the Shuster connection, but I've never been a great appreciator of him, so you're probably seeing subtleties that I'm missing.
Somebody should get all of the first four ME U.S. Marines in the next JVJ batch and we can all look at all that is known of this guy's work. Geo, Jon, Eric? NARF - you should take these four books and squeeze them into your life, somehow. Just a thought.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Somebody should get all of the first four ME U.S. Marines in the next JVJ batch and we can all look at all that is known of this guy's work. Geo, Jon, Eric? NARF - you should take these four books and squeeze them into your life, somehow. Just a thought.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
Jim, when I make my next request -- assuming I don't fill a box completely -- I want you to toss in any choices like this that you might have to be scanned.
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Somebody should get all of the first four ME U.S. Marines in the next JVJ batch and we can all look at all that is known of this guy's work. Geo, Jon, Eric?
Jim, when I make my next request -- assuming I don't fill a box completely -- I want you to toss in any choices like this that you might have to be scanned.
The only time I think of these things is when I'm on a quest for information, Jon. Unfortunately, I don't retain the focus for very long, so PLEASE write down U.S. Marines #1-4 on your "next batch" list because I'LL never remember it.
Thanks for the offer, too.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Yes, jc, the "spreading his wings" analogy makes sense to me, too. The artist appears in issues 3 and 4, also, so its not a one-off. Given the dates, it's possible he was a WWII casualty. I've never seen him (I use the masculine pronoun simply for convenience) elsewhere, before or since.
I do wonder, though, if he didn't produce fast enough or consistent enough (those other books will undoubtedly give a better indication) and ended up churning out simpler work elsewhere. Or perhaps he got a "real job" after a few months slogging around in the comics. But yes, it's unfortunately the most likely that he was sent off to war.
He's long after Shuster, so there's no chance of him being an inspiration for JS.
That's assuming (which I initially did, too) that he started his career in the comics. The Manila John blurb, though, reminds me (in general form, I mean--I don't have any magazine in mind) of a banner from a Pulp magazine. The rear-lit head overlooking the blurb is certainly not comic book composition, for example.
Personally, I don't see the Shuster connection, but I've never been a great appreciator of him, so you're probably seeing subtleties that I'm missing.
The "s" across all the lettering drew me to the theory initially. An alphabet where the letters are (almost) all precise except for the top-heavy S struck me as very uncommon and familiar. I realized that I first saw it in the reconstruction material for the "K-Metal from Krypton" story.
After that possible theory took root, I noticed the specific attention given to everybody's shoulders. Everybody is extremely stocky, here, and has very prominent shoulder positioning. However, that's where the similarity stops, because Shuster seems to not make use of this, other than to give his characters "stage presence." This guy, though, is using the shoulders to show progression. (By contrast, Will Eisner is also big on shoulders, but uses them to narrow his figures and show emotion.) Less conclusive, but somewhat interesting, is the similarity of middle-aged Toyama's head to the infamous "slap a jap" cover--the Superman propaganda is more cartoony, of course, but the glasses and ears are remarkably similar to my eyes, at least in concept.
So it's definitely not Shuster, but seems like someone who's focusing on the same sorts of key issues in composition, but taking it from a very different perspective.
It also seems that the art is pretty much humorless. There's nothing whimsical in any of the work, and it's all laid out very deliberately, down to which details are included (the shadows along the pant leg folds, particularly draw my eye) and which aren't (the mountains in the distance). Oddly, the only thing that doesn't look like it was planned out in detail are the explosions. They're distinctive, but definitely out of place. Maybe someone can recognize them?
As I said, though, I'm very probably wrong. I haven't explored too much period pencilling in detail, so these could be more generic traits than I think they are, and I could also easily be correlating things where they're not connected.
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OK, Jim, let's see if this works. This is the first page of a Black Cat story from SPEED COMICS I need sourced. Any luck?
http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears18kb0.jpg
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OK, Jim, let's see if this works. This is the first page of a Black Cat story from SPEED COMICS I need sourced. Any luck?
http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears18kb0.jpg
Any chance you could post a larger scan, dm?
A lot of my information is artist-based and I can't tell who drew it from such a tiny scan.
Thanks. Jim (|:{>
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I do wonder, though, if he didn't produce fast enough or consistent enough (those other books will undoubtedly give a better indication) and ended up churning out simpler work elsewhere. Or perhaps he got a "real job" after a few months slogging around in the comics. But yes, it's unfortunately the most likely that he was sent off to war.
Part of what I bring to identifying artists, jc, is the extrapolation of styles over time. It was my freakish ability in this regard that unearthed the 1942/43 work of Bernie Krigstein for John Benson's Squa Tront. I can somehow figure out how an artist developed (or devolved) over his or her career and I can say with some certainty that this artist didn't go anywhere in comics. Whoever he/she was, this is probably both a debut and a swansong. You'd have to do a LOT of convincing to get me to agree that this was a pulp artist prior to being a comic book artist. I'd accept the possibility of being a comic STRIP artist, as there is a lot of graphic storytelling ability demonstrably here.
That's assuming (which I initially did, too) that he started his career in the comics. The Manila John blurb, though, reminds me (in general form, I mean--I don't have any magazine in mind) of a banner from a Pulp magazine. The rear-lit head overlooking the blurb is certainly not comic book composition, for example.
Yeah, possibly, but I see it as more of an advertising or commercial art approach than even a pulp technique. This artist HAD to have some experience prior to the USM stories. Nobody "hit the ground running" this well on their first comic book story.
The "s" across all the lettering drew me to the theory initially. An alphabet where the letters are (almost) all precise except for the top-heavy S struck me as very uncommon and familiar. I realized that I first saw it in the reconstruction material for the "K-Metal from Krypton" story.
This is a factor that I seldom put much faith in simply because it is based on the assumption that the artist did the lettering - and I have no way of knowing that that's the case. I have to rely on artistic idiosyncrasies and always keep the surface (inking) ones in mind as possibly being separate from the underlying (pencil) structure.
After that possible theory took root, I noticed the specific attention given to everybody's shoulders. Everybody is extremely stocky, here, and has very prominent shoulder positioning. However, that's where the similarity stops, because Shuster seems to not make use of this, other than to give his characters "stage presence." This guy, though, is using the shoulders to show progression. (By contrast, Will Eisner is also big on shoulders, but uses them to narrow his figures and show emotion.) Less conclusive, but somewhat interesting, is the similarity of middle-aged Toyama's head to the infamous "slap a jap" cover--the Superman propaganda is more cartoony, of course, but the glasses and ears are remarkably similar to my eyes, at least in concept.
I see what you mean and it's good to notice these things (and to have them pointed out to me). My focus is always on the overall art. I wouldn't characterize this artist as drawing "stocky" figures. A more precise observation would be that they are not "heroic" in stature - more natural and (considering most are of Japanese characters) more realistic. But there is also the cartoony aspect that comes through it all and, as you observe with the similarities to the Superman cover, the racial stereotypes of the day.
So it's definitely not Shuster, but seems like someone who's focusing on the same sorts of key issues in composition, but taking it from a very different perspective.
It also seems that the art is pretty much humorless. There's nothing whimsical in any of the work, and it's all laid out very deliberately, down to which details are included (the shadows along the pant leg folds, particularly draw my eye) and which aren't (the mountains in the distance). Oddly, the only thing that doesn't look like it was planned out in detail are the explosions. They're distinctive, but definitely out of place. Maybe someone can recognize them?
Another very intriguing aspect of the art is the (apparently) incredible knowledge/depiction of Japanese costumes and history. The writer seems to have done a LOT of homework, too. This is NOT your typical Japan-bashing story.
As I said, though, I'm very probably wrong. I haven't explored too much period pencilling in detail, so these could be more generic traits than I think they are, and I could also easily be correlating things where they're not connected.
Observations are seldom "wrong", jc. They may turn out not to have much relevancy to the final answer, but they are always interesting in and of themselves. For instance, I found your "humorless" comment to be "odd," because I see this artist as primarily a cartoonist with ambitions of seriousness. You see it the other way round. Unless we can extend his/her career forward or backward, we'll probably never know which of us is more observant.
But, it is ALWAYS fun to try and solve this type of mystery.
Thanks for playing. Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I did get the impression that the artist might have been oriental. Possibly a Japanese artist who became persona non grata.
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I did get the impression that the artist might have been oriental. Possibly a Japanese artist who became persona non grata.
A good thought, narf. I keep trying to pin down just who it reminds me of and I had a short flash on Chu Hing. I eventually discarded him as a possibility, but the Oriental "air" of the art does remain.
I know that a lot of Japanese here in California were put in "camps" during the war. Was there a similar reaction on the East Coast? Could an artist of Japanese descent get a job in comics in 1943? Bob Fujitani obviously did, so perhaps I've answered my own question, but he was known quantity before the war.
There seems to be more to this artist than initially meets the eye. Keep pondering...
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Canada had Japanese internment camps as well Jim.
A large black-eye on our WW2 history.
-Yoc
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Yet with the last name Ludwig my family did not face interment. Not as visually easy to identify as the "enemy" Glad things have changed. I do think we are on the right track with an oriental artist.
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Actually, I wasn't looking to ID the artist, I just want to know what issue of SPEED it's from. Thanks.
OK, Jim, let's see if this works. This is the first page of a Black Cat story from SPEED COMICS I need sourced. Any luck?
http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears18kb0.jpg
Any chance you could post a larger scan, dm?
A lot of my information is artist-based and I can't tell who drew it from such a tiny scan.
Thanks. Jim (|:{>
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Actually, I wasn't looking to ID the artist, I just want to know what issue of SPEED it's from. Thanks.
That was quite clear, DM,
What wasn't clear is that my data cards will tell me who drew the story and I can do a LOT of winnowing down the possible issue numbers if I have a clear idea of who was drawing Black Cat. i.e. if I look at your scan and it's drawn by Jill Elgin, I don't have to look through the issues where Black Cat was drawn by Joe Kubert.
Having said that, I will fess up that my Speed collection for the war years is pretty slim. Still, I might have the issue. I simply don't want to page through every issue of Speed if I don't have to.
Thanks for understanding.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I did get the impression that the artist might have been oriental. Possibly a Japanese artist who became persona non grata.
Does anyone out there have any artwork signed by Maurice Kashuba? He was around at the right time and there is a definite connection between Columbia and early ME. Here's his WW entry:
Name Category Credit Tenure[hide]
KASHUBA, MAURICE
Name and vital stats
KASHUBA, MAURICE (artist; writer)
CENTAUR COMICS
BIG RACE (pen/ink/) 1938 > 38
Filler (wr/pen/ink/) 1938 > 38
LUCKY DOYLE, MASTER DETECTIVE (wr/pen/ink/) 1938 [Imprint: CHESLER] > 38
RIDERS OF THE GOLDEN WEST (wr/pen/ink/) 1938 [Imprint: CHESLER] > 38
SECRET TUNNEL, THE (wr/pen/ink/) 1938 > 38
TOM CURRY (wr/pen/ink/) 1938 > 38
COLUMBIA COMIC CORPORATION
TOM KERRY (wr/pen/ink/) 1940 > 40
DC COMICS
CLICK EVANS (wr/pen/ink/) 1938 > 38
KIT STRONG (wr/pen/ink/) 1940-41 > 40 41
SPY (wr/pen/ink/) 1940 > 40
DELL PUBLICATIONS
MR. DISTRICT ATTORNEY (wr/pen/ink/) 1941-42 > 41 42
PROFESSOR SUPERMIND AND SON (wr/pen/ink/) 1941 > 41
QUALITY COMICS
MISS AMERICA (wr/pen/ink/) 1942 > 42
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Jim,
I have all (?) the "Professor Supermind and Son" that someone complied recently. The first one is signed Maurice Kashuba. Others may be as well. I've put this up on Sendspace
http://www.sendspace.com/file/djdon3
For anyone who wants to look at them
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That was compiled by Mike Harwood for the SpaceVoucherHoax Yahoo group Jon.
It is complete.
:)
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OK, Jon, how about this?
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8409/bcatwaryears18fs9.jpg
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Jim,
I have all (?) the "Professor Supermind and Son" that someone complied recently. The first one is signed Maurice Kashuba. Others may be as well. I've put this up on Sendspace
http://www.sendspace.com/file/djdon3
For anyone who wants to look at them
Thanks, Jon,
As I mentioned in my other response, Maurice Kashuba is not the artist of the U.S. Marines stories. The artist on the other stories is Ralph Carlson - Kashuba only does the first one.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Grrr...A slip of the finger and the browser decided to take a nap, when I was almost done replying. So, this is rushed and I apologize in advance if it's patchy and incomplete--there's a good chance I think I explained stuff that never got sent.
Also, I agree that the evolution is important and sometimes predictable, so didn't really comment, there.
Yeah, possibly, but I see it as more of an advertising or commercial art approach than even a pulp technique. This artist HAD to have some experience prior to the USM stories. Nobody "hit the ground running" this well on their first comic book story.
My guess of Pulp experience over, say, advertising is due to the assumption that a company isn't going to want the mascot or model to look haunted. I've certainly never seen the light coming from behind except in specific artsy (and decidedly modern photographic) layouts. On the other hand, I've seen the technique used frequently (with or without a story-related reason) in the magazine material scanned on Project Gutenberg.
They show up on the scene too late to be relevant to this discussion, but Frank Freas and Victor Napoli both kept this in their respective bags of tricks.
The "s" across all the lettering drew me to the theory initially. An alphabet where the letters are (almost) all precise except for the top-heavy S struck me as very uncommon and familiar. I realized that I first saw it in the reconstruction material for the "K-Metal from Krypton" story.
This is a factor that I seldom put much faith in simply because it is based on the assumption that the artist did the lettering - and I have no way of knowing that that's the case. I have to rely on artistic idiosyncrasies and always keep the surface (inking) ones in mind as possibly being separate from the underlying (pencil) structure.
In principle, I agree, and was only walking through my line of thought on the chance that it'd jog somebody else's memory. In retrospect, though, it's probably just a coincidence, because the W is also distinctive, but I've never seen it before.
I see what you mean and it's good to notice these things (and to have them pointed out to me). My focus is always on the overall art. I wouldn't characterize this artist as drawing "stocky" figures. A more precise observation would be that they are not "heroic" in stature - more natural and (considering most are of Japanese characters) more realistic.
I didn't mean any judgement beyond the literal description by "stocky." Even the children and elderly have squarish torsos and broad shoulders. In the era of political correctness, I guess it's become a euphemism for "fat," so I'm sorry for the confusion, there.
But there is also the cartoony aspect that comes through it all and, as you observe with the similarities to the Superman cover, the racial stereotypes of the day.
It looks to me, though, as if the stereotyping is being used to advantage, rather than for ignorance. I remember reading, years back, that people can more easily identify a mildly distorted (exaggerated) picture of a face than the original, and that looks like what the artist is doing, here. For example, if you can avoid focusing on any of the characters in the scene and take it all in at once, the faces look real.
I'm tempted to say that this suggests strong exposure to pre-photographic portrait work, either due to age (unlikely) or education.
Another very intriguing aspect of the art is the (apparently) incredible knowledge/depiction of Japanese costumes and history. The writer seems to have done a LOT of homework, too. This is NOT your typical Japan-bashing story.
It's strange, though. It's obvious that there's a lot of research, here, yes. Mitsuru Toyama's biography agrees with everything I can find. The architecture and other dressing look about right to me and even change with the date represented.
On the other hand, there are significant details that seem to have been overlooked. For example, in four instances of Japanese writing (the sign in panel 2.2, the handbill in 3.3, the banner in 4.4, and the scroll in 4.5), only the handbill resembles Japanese to my eye. The sign looks Arabic, the banner isn't meant to be readable, and the scroll looks like random scribbling. Also--and possibly more tellingly--even though the image of Tojo is extremely close, Toyama's image looks nothing like the real man; that's particularly confusing, since the story is his biography.
Does anybody know enough Japanese to check the relevant text or pseudo-text?
For instance, I found your "humorless" comment to be "odd," because I see this artist as primarily a cartoonist with ambitions of seriousness. You see it the other way round. Unless we can extend his/her career forward or backward, we'll probably never know which of us is more observant.
I'm mostly talking about the general composition, here. Everything has a purpose, and nothing is exaggerated beyond its usefulness. For example, check the Japanese man's arm in the middle panel of the last page you posted. It's not photographic, but a photographic-style image wouldn't convey the motion, so some license was taken. But--and this is important, in my eyes--the license taken is minimal, no more than is absolutely needed to show what's happening. And every single figure carries this same aesthetic in their body language, even the "violent youths."
It's entirely possible that the trick was learned working on a humor strip, since you can't have frantic action without it, but then we have the literal panel composition. We have extreme detail on the figures and anything of interest in the panel, and the rest is used for framing (including that oppressive non-sky). Even the parallax is messed with to change the impression of depth. Those don't seem like things you do for a humor strip. There, when you have detail, everything is detailed (Little Nemo, for example), but normally the rule is that one or two objects get detail, and the rest are abstract.
Something else strikes me that nothing seems out of place in any frame. I get the impression that the entire scene was drawn in one pass. There weren't any corrections or additions, and with visuals this complicated, I'm amazed.
But, it is ALWAYS fun to try and solve this type of mystery.
Absolutely. If it wasn't fun, I would've gladly left this to the people who are (clearly) better prepared than I am. Wherever the line of reasoning leads, thanks for finding this guy!
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They show up on the scene too late to be relevant to this discussion, but Frank Freas and Victor Napoli both kept this in their respective bags of tricks.
I know this almost completely derails the subject, but did Kelly Freas ever do any comic book work other than one story in XXXenophile late in his career?
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I'll try to keep this down to pertinent points, jc,
My guess of Pulp experience over, say, advertising is due to the assumption that a company isn't going to want the mascot or model to look haunted. I've certainly never seen the light coming from behind except in specific artsy (and decidedly modern photographic) layouts. On the other hand, I've seen the technique used frequently (with or without a story-related reason) in the magazine material scanned on Project Gutenberg.
Perhaps I've just seen more examples, but the side-lighting with the ink lines only on the facial features doesn't look all that unusual to me. And it's hard for me to make a lot of connections from only one example of a technique. For all we know, this is the first and last time this artist took this approach.
I didn't mean any judgement beyond the literal description by "stocky." Even the children and elderly have squarish torsos and broad shoulders. In the era of political correctness, I guess it's become a euphemism for "fat," so I'm sorry for the confusion, there.
I understand and agree with you.
But there is also the cartoony aspect that comes through it all and, as you observe with the similarities to the Superman cover, the racial stereotypes of the day.
It looks to me, though, as if the stereotyping is being used to advantage, rather than for ignorance. I remember reading, years back, that people can more easily identify a mildly distorted (exaggerated) picture of a face than the original, and that looks like what the artist is doing, here. For example, if you can avoid focusing on any of the characters in the scene and take it all in at once, the faces look real.
I'm tempted to say that this suggests strong exposure to pre-photographic portrait work, either due to age (unlikely) or education.
I agree that this is shorthand stereotyping, as opposed to malicious or negative. It's well done and serves its purpose by getting the artist's message across simply and clearly.
It's strange, though. It's obvious that there's a lot of research, here, yes. Mitsuru Toyama's biography agrees with everything I can find. The architecture and other dressing look about right to me and even change with the date represented.
On the other hand, there are significant details that seem to have been overlooked. For example, in four instances of Japanese writing (the sign in panel 2.2, the handbill in 3.3, the banner in 4.4, and the scroll in 4.5), only the handbill resembles Japanese to my eye. The sign looks Arabic, the banner isn't meant to be readable, and the scroll looks like random scribbling. Also--and possibly more tellingly--even though the image of Tojo is extremely close, Toyama's image looks nothing like the real man; that's particularly confusing, since the story is his biography.
Does anybody know enough Japanese to check the relevant text or pseudo-text?
This is information I was not privy to and I thank you deeply for it. I second your request for anyone with experience in Japanese to help out. Perhaps I'll send it to my brother-in-law who makes his living translating legal and medical documents from Japanese to English and vice versa.
I'm mostly talking about the general composition, here. Everything has a purpose, and nothing is exaggerated beyond its usefulness. For example, check the Japanese man's arm in the middle panel of the last page you posted. It's not photographic, but a photographic-style image wouldn't convey the motion, so some license was taken. But--and this is important, in my eyes--the license taken is minimal, no more than is absolutely needed to show what's happening. And every single figure carries this same aesthetic in their body language, even the "violent youths."
It's entirely possible that the trick was learned working on a humor strip, since you can't have frantic action without it, but then we have the literal panel composition. We have extreme detail on the figures and anything of interest in the panel, and the rest is used for framing (including that oppressive non-sky). Even the parallax is messed with to change the impression of depth. Those don't seem like things you do for a humor strip. There, when you have detail, everything is detailed (Little Nemo, for example), but normally the rule is that one or two objects get detail, and the rest are abstract.
Something else strikes me that nothing seems out of place in any frame. I get the impression that the entire scene was drawn in one pass. There weren't any corrections or additions, and with visuals this complicated, I'm amazed.
Me, too. That's why I find myself pursuing this guy when there are dozens (if not hundreds) of other "unknowns" out there seeking equal time.
Absolutely. If it wasn't fun, I would've gladly left this to the people who are (clearly) better prepared than I am. Wherever the line of reasoning leads, thanks for finding this guy!
I'd say "you're welcome" except it's becoming somewhat of a mania that I need to reel in. Thanks for joining the hunt. Your comments are perceptive.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
re your FKF postscript, no, Freas did only a few painted covers for comic books of the 50s.
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Also--and possibly more tellingly--even though the image of Tojo is extremely close, Toyama's image looks nothing like the real man; that's particularly confusing, since the story is his biography.
Your comments about the image of Toyama being off sent me scurrying around the web, jc.
While I've yet to turn up a photo of the young Toyama, the Wikipedia site has a photo that seems to echo very strongly the portrait in the splash. Toyama is the center figure here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuru_Toyama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuru_Toyama)
compare to:
(http://www.bpib.com/test/GAC/USM001.jpg)
Given the correlation of likenesses with the (then) contemporary Toyama (and with Tojo as you point out), it could be that back then there was no available reference of him as a young man. Comments?
Peace, Jim (|:{>
ps. there is a [Preview] button in the Post Reply window, but all I ever get is a "Fetching preview..." line in the Preview Post window. Is there something I don't know about?
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Your comments about the image of Toyama being off sent me scurrying around the web, jc.
Whoops! Sorry about that. I meant to include relevant URLs, since I caught the motherlode:
http://www.toyamamitsuru.jp/syashin/index.html
Of course, the captions are in Japanese, which doesn't help, but the Internet comes to the rescue with free tools.
http://www.appliedlanguage.com/web_translation.shtml
But the upshot is that we can see him at 25, 45, 60, 70, and 80.
Given the correlation of likenesses with the (then) contemporary Toyama (and with Tojo as you point out), it could be that back then there was no available reference of him as a young man. Comments?
I suppose it's possible, but he doesn't seem to have been reclusive prior. However, I should amend my original statement in that the splash looks like the eighty-year-old Toyama, which is one of the pictures I neglected to look at. He aged a lot more in those ten years (seventy to eighty) than I would've ever expected.
As to the availability of material, I don't even think I could hazard a guess. He's not listed in the 1911 Encyclopedia Brittanica (available for download at the Internet Archive), unfortunately. I'm also stymied in finding the obituary listed in Wikipedia, since the New York Times charges four bucks for the honor of reading a sixty-four-year-old page (since there are brief comments on two pages, that's eight bucks for about a thousand words and maybe a picture). Google Books is also a bust, though it turns up some of Toyama's own words from 1922 regarding the Washington Conference. Here's the relevant page.
http://books.google.com/books?id=QV6ena5_h4oC&pg=PA149&sig=ACfU3U3UsD2-bjdnmxYi8ZQpzWvofOGWeg
However, even though it's not illustrated (though I assume that it was in print), Time Magazine was more helpful with background:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,765147-1,00.html
Since that was published in 1941, I'm going to guess that it's the main source of the author's information. If it was published with pictures, then those images were almost certainly the core of the artist's research, as well. And now that I think about it, the Times obituary is probably irrelevant--if the book has a cover date anywhere in 1944, then they didn't get any information from any October 1944 article.
Incidentally, it's interesting to compare this depiction of Toyama with his lightly fictionalized (and anonymous) counterpart in All-Star Comics #12.
ps. there is a [Preview] button in the Post Reply window, but all I ever get is a "Fetching preview..." line in the Preview Post window. Is there something I don't know about?
I know it used to do something, because I hit it accidentally a few times instead of posting, early on. Looks dead now, though.
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OK, Jon, how about this?
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8409/bcatwaryears18fs9.jpg
Sorry, DM, I missed this as it was addressed to "Jon", not me. Thanks for this. It's much more useful, albeit ultimately not very helpful as I don't even know who the artist is. NICE work. Did AC have a credit for it? I'd be tickled to know who it is.
As I said, my war years Speeds are not very solid. I jump from #11 to #23 (Oct. 42) so there's a lot of material to which I can't refer. Having said that, I may as well go through what I have and you can see if it helps you any.
#23 - Black Cat teams up with other Harvey Heroes in "Hollywood Attacked by Japs". It's credited to Arturo Cazeneuve but is actually pencilled by Pierce Rice.
#24 - (mine's coverless, so this could be wrong) Black Cat in "Nazi Uniforms", by Rice and Cazeneuve.
#30 - (another big gap) and my copy of this is missing two centerfolds which include the first five pages of the BC story. The three pages I do have involve BC in the Mid-East and on a Nazi submarine. Art is odd. I don't know who it is, but it is reminiscent of Avison, Fred Bell and Paul Reinman. How's that for a motley crew?
#32 - two cf's missing here, too, and so lacking 7 of 8 BC pages. The one page I have looks a little like Jill Elgin and involves Siberian peasants.
#33 - "A Statue of Horror" looks to be by Kurbert and Elgin.
#36 - "Doom for Traitors" looks to be mostly Kubert.
#37 - "Ouanga - Savage Rite of Death". Kurbert and some Elgin.
#38 - "Cleopatra of the Casbah" - Kubert and Elgin.
#39 - despite appearing on the cover, there is no BC in this issue.
#40 - again, on the cover but not in the mag.
#41-43 - no BC
#44 - "Suicide Ship" - Rudy Palais
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Actually, on page 2, the art is credited to Cazaneuve. It could be by Rice as well. Since the title is "Rats in Uniform", it possibly could be "Nazi Uniforms". Want some more pages to check it?
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Actually, on page 2, the art is credited to Cazaneuve. It could be by Rice as well. Since the title is "Rats in Uniform", it possibly could be "Nazi Uniforms". Want some more pages to check it?
That's a puzzler, DM, as it doesn't look like ANY Cazeneuve that I've ever seen. Is it an art credit on page 2 or just a "by Cazeneuve"? And does it say Louis or Arturo? And Pierce Rice is WAY different than this. I did a prolonged study of Pierce Rice during about three years of correspondence with him and Karen and I actually visited him back in 1984. I learned how to spot him even under Bernie Krigstein inks (they actually shared a studio for a short time in the early 50s).
More pages won't help me locate the source. I looked through ALL of the Black Cat stories in the Speeds that I own and that splash panel is not among them. Sorry. :'( >:(
BUT, I would very much like to see more pages to understand the Cazeneuve attribution. That is most puzzling to me.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Let's try a Girl Commandos story this time, "The Devil's Sister." Good luck!
http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warsirenslibertybelles0il5.jpg
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My mistake! It was by Al Gabrielle. Here's the second page of the BC story:
http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears19qd2.jpg
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Let's try a Girl Commandos story this time, "The Devil's Sister." Good luck!
http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warsirenslibertybelles0il5.jpg
Any chance you can give me all the splash panels of the stories you want sources, DM? Then I can just go through all the Speeds ONE TIME and give you whatever information I can provide. I'd like to help, but I'd like it to be as painless as possible.
Thanks. Jim (|:{>
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Here's the first page of a Pat Parker story:
http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears26wf7.jpg
Edit: Hold on, this one's from Speed #19.
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Here's the penultimate one, a Shock Gibson story:
http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears10rp6.jpg
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And here's the last one, another Shock Gibson story:
http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warsirenslibertybelles0tg0.jpg
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Let's try a Girl Commandos story this time, "The Devil's Sister." Good luck!
http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warsirenslibertybelles0il5.jpg
From Speed #33 by Elgin and Kubert
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Here's the first page of a Pat Parker story:
http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears26wf7.jpg
Pat Parker was the original name of Girl Commandos, so this precedes Speed #23 which has Pat Parker listed on the cover and Pat Parker in Girl Commandos on the inside. Art by Barbara Hall, another of the many unsung females of whom there are only supposed to be a few in comics.
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Here's the penultimate one, a Shock Gibson story:
http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcatwaryears10rp6.jpg
I don't own a copy, but the art (by Al Bryant) places this circa issue #22, 25. Both 23 and 24 have Shock Gibson stories by him.
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And here's the last one, another Shock Gibson story:
http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warsirenslibertybelles0tg0.jpg
No idea, DM. Sorry.
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Thanks a bunch for *all* your efforts, Jim! Keep 'em flying!
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I'm also thinking that the earlier Shock Gibson story are probably from SPEED #19 or 20, as Harvey reprinted other stories from those issues.
Edit: Just found out the Black Cat story is from SPEED #29.
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I'm also thinking that the earlier Shock Gibson story are probably from SPEED #19 or 20, as Harvey reprinted other stories from those issues.
Edit: Just found out the Black Cat story is from SPEED #29.
Glad to help, DM,
as for the above guess of Speed 19 or 20, it's an excellent direction to explore. Beyond that it becomes speculation and I don't go in for that. Let me know what you turn up.
Good job on pinning down the BC story. I wish I had more Speed Comics.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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OK, JVJ, here's another one:
http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warsirenslibertybelles0ix4.jpg
This is from a 13-page Man In Black story by, of course, Bob Powell. It's not from any of the four MAN IN BLACK issues or THRILL-O-RAMA #1 and I didn't find anything for it in the Keltner index. Maybe it's from Joe Palooka? Best of luck.
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Couldn't locate it, DM.
None of the filler stories in Joe Palooka were much longer than 6 pages and most were shorter. This has a mid- to late-forties feel to the style, but I don't know of any other titles in which MIB appeared. Sorry. I looked through all of my index cards but had no luck.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I don't know if this is relevant, but the caption (Man in Black's intro) is in the present tense so the war might still have been going on when it was written.
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Think you'd be any good on Fiction House, JVJ? I have a number of Sheena and Sky Girl stories which could use sourcing. If not, I understand.
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Think you'd be any good on Fiction House, JVJ? I have a number of Sheena and Sky Girl stories which could use sourcing. If not, I understand.
Every issue of Wings and the first 75 issues of Jumbo have been indexed by Henry Steele, Hames Ware and me on the GCD, NF. Just put the first six to eight words of the story into the search field and search on [story title] on the GCD and you should find it if it was in either of those titles. We haven't done the Sheena title, but only two of the issues were early 40s and the rest are Iger Shop pastiches. Whether we'll get to those eventually or not I don't know.
I just got the first pass info for Jungle 101-110 from Henry Steele the day before yesterday and will be reviewing his input and coordinating it with Hames' comments later this week. The project continues, albeit slowly.
Let me know if you have any success.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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These may be from the Sheena title, then, or the post-#75 Jumbos for the Sky Girls. I've run them thru the GCD more than once and not come up with a source. Thanks, though.
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After looking at the cover, then the book, I think the inside cover story The Corpse in the House and other story The Forest of Death are also by Giordano. To me the cover does not look like typical Giordano from later Charlton war and western but it is signed.
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If Ontology had scanned my index card (hint, hint, Ont!) for this book, narf,
you would have discovered that the artist on these two stories is Bob McCarty.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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If Ontology had scanned my index card (hint, hint, Ont!) for this book, narf,
you would have discovered that the artist on these two stories is Bob McCarty.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
Soooo since IMHO the cover did not look like typical Dick that he was trying to look like McCarty since the cover came from his story?
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This looks to me like a Myron Fass cover. Maybe not his inks but looks like his style especially the cops. He is not listed as working for Cross. Could it be him?
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This looks to me like a Myron Fass cover. Maybe not his inks but looks like his style especially the cops. He is not listed as working for Cross. Could it be him?
http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=373545&image=213357844&images=213357844&formats=0&format=0
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If Ontology had scanned my index card (hint, hint, Ont!) for this book, narf,
you would have discovered that the artist on these two stories is Bob McCarty.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
Soooo since IMHO the cover did not look like typical Dick that he was trying to look like McCarty since the cover came from his story?
That could very easily be the case, narf. The only additional comment I'd make is that early Giordano is not nearly as recognizable as he would later become. Like a lot of young artists (he would have been perhaps 20 when this cover was done), he was probably looking for a style. It is extremely likely that he would look to the interior art for "inspiration".
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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This looks to me like a Myron Fass cover. Maybe not his inks but looks like his style especially the cops. He is not listed as working for Cross. Could it be him?
http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=373545&image=213357844&images=213357844&formats=0&format=0
This artist did most of the early covers for The Perfect Crime. While he superficially resembles Fass, he is a much better artist - Fass is/was derivative and inconsistent, so his style varies from job to job. This guy is both consistent AND more accomplished. I think if you look at the first dozen or so covers (he never did anything inside that I could find), you'll see what I mean.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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GCD has this as Andru and Esposito I do not think so.
I am usually wrong but going with John Severin if JVJ and other concur
(http://narfstar.cwahi.net/ArtID/lastscan39.jpg)
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I agree -- not Andru and Esposito.
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GCD has this as Andru and Esposito I do not think so.
I am usually wrong but going with John Severin if JVJ and other concur
(http://narfstar.cwahi.net/ArtID/lastscan39.jpg)
I'd have to see a larger and better scan to answer this question.
(|:{>
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(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk117/rez100/10.jpg)
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Sorry, guys,
This IS Andru and Esposito. Def. NOT JPS.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I am nowhere as knowledgeable as JVJ, but I too call that one A&E based on the eyes of the woman and the boy inside the cabin. That's the easiest A&E "tell".
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I agree B that part looked it but the rest just did not to me. I am usually wrong except Eugene Hughes IDs
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I sincerely wish I were able to explain what I see when ID'ing an artist, narf,
but I've never been able to encapsulate the feelings in words. It all began about 40 years ago. I was operating a little comic store out of my friend Pat Price's garage in Palo Alto. We only opened after school (he was in High School, I in college), but one day we acquired a coverless copy of All-Star Western #99 with a reprint of the Frank Frazetta 3 page Botayale (sp?) story. I was jazzed to find a Frazetta story I hadn't seen and quickly showed it to Pat. He said something to the effect "It's really good. Is it Wally Wood?" At that moment, I simply knew that I saw things differently than my comic friends. And it has proved to be so. I don't know how or why, but somethings are simply more obvious to me for inexplicable reasons. I've learned to accept it, but understand the confusion and doubt it brings to others.
Wish I could be more descriptive of WHY I see who I see, but I simply DO.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I do have the few standouts I can recognize (most of the time), Frazetta, Wood, Ditko, Kinstler, Kubert, Gil Kane, Kirby and Eugene Hughes (especially war). Other than that there may be some certain things that will jump out like some Fass covers and cops and some Altman. Even those will have some instances that are discouraging. I created my art ID site to allow for anyone who want to concentrate on a particular artist and perhaps become familiar. Maybe we can have volunteers to become a "someone" specialist. Maybe if I stuck with studying Hughes I could become the "expert" on Hughes and not worry about the others. If everyone picked an artist we could probably get a lot accomplished. I could go through the scans of KEY publications and pick out all the Hughes someone else the Hollingsworth, etc. Most Superior and Ajax are unsigned but mostly the same artist. If we could get some of those identified definetively we might get on a roll for a lot.
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Israel Waldman usually had a short stable of artists for his cover art, at least afaik. Most of the action-oriented ones seemed to be by Andru / Esposito, John Severin, Joe Simon, and Sol Brodsky. Vinnie Colletta did a number of the Romance ones, and somebody better than I will have to tell who did the funny ones.
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I do have the few standouts I can recognize (most of the time), Frazetta, Wood, Ditko, Kinstler, Kubert, Gil Kane, Kirby and Eugene Hughes (especially war). Other than that there may be some certain things that will jump out like some Fass covers and cops and some Altman. Even those will have some instances that are discouraging. I created my art ID site to allow for anyone who want to concentrate on a particular artist and perhaps become familiar. Maybe we can have volunteers to become a "someone" specialist. Maybe if I stuck with studying Hughes I could become the "expert" on Hughes and not worry about the others. If everyone picked an artist we could probably get a lot accomplished. I could go through the scans of KEY publications and pick out all the Hughes someone else the Hollingsworth, etc. Most Superior and Ajax are unsigned but mostly the same artist. If we could get some of those identified definetively we might get on a roll for a lot.
I do think that if you study one particular artist carefully you will begin to pick up certain "tells". When I was a teenager there were no indexes of which Batman stories were by Dick Sprang or not (indeed I didn't even know his name), so I had to be able to flip through an old comic before buying it to make sure it had enough of the "good" Batman artist to make it worth my while, and even there I screwed up a few times with the Golden Age as I mistook some Robinson stories for Sprang just because I liked the art. Of course they are nothing like each other and today it's much easier for me to see that.
Sprang's easiest tells are the panels where the backdrop is enormous and so characters in the distance are simply rendered as tiny blobs of ink in a generally human shape. Sprang does this in almost every story. He also is a master at perspective and oblique aerial camera angles. When running his characters have a weird, bent-over appearance. It looks more like they're bicycling than running; it's about the only negative tell that I can think of for Sprang. Well, that and the weird faces of the villains he drew.
Of course Sprang's easy because he mostly did one character, but I think the principle is the same. Every artist has something that he does uniquely, like Andru & Esposito and those weird eyes, John Forte's facial expressions, Gene Colan's use of shading, Aparo's dots, Kirby's layouts, Kane's flaring nostrils, etc.
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JVJ: For the heck of it, I'll note that the Shock Gibson story of which I posted a splash page (about the Nazi Lorelei) is either from SPEED #25 or 29. Any idea which?
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JVJ: For the heck of it, I'll note that the Shock Gibson story of which I posted a splash page (about the Nazi Lorelei) is either from SPEED #25 or 29. Any idea which?
You'll have to forgive me, DM, but I've totally forgotten where to get a look at this splash. Got a link? And actually, now that I check my list, I don't have either issue, so I'm really unlikely to be able to help. Sorry.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Perfectly all right. I'm sure we'll figure out where it comes from eventually.
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Maybe I can finally get one right. Especially the blonde boy in the fourth panel looks like he is right out of George's GE Adventure Series
http://tinyurl.com/nszwot
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Maybe I can finally get one right. Especially the blonde boy in the fourth panel looks like he is right out of George's GE Adventure Series
http://tinyurl.com/nszwot
What book/story are we talking about here, narf?
I can't make the link work as I'm not part of the group, I guess. But maybe I have the book and can check for you.
Peace, Jim(?:{>
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Yep, we get -
"You cannot view the group's content or participate in the group because you are not currently a member."
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Sorry GCD groups location. Here is a link that should work for all
http://narfstar.cwahi.net/ArtID/TerryP012_04ad.jpg
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Sorry GCD groups location. Here is a link that should work for all
http://narfstar.cwahi.net/ArtID/TerryP012_04ad.jpg
thanks for the peek, narf. THis looks like Al Bare to me. I don't see Roussos.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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GCD has credit for Punch 19 cover as Ricca http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=5228&zoom=4
Sure looks like Paul G figures to me as does the Echo story inside.
(http://narfstar.cwahi.net/images/dyn19EchoPaulg.jpg)
You're right on both counts, Narf.
For the record and for those who don't know who we're talking about, it's Paul Gattuso.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Thanks Jim. From the first time I saw the Black Dwarf in my IW reprint there was an artist I could ID. Like the Eugene Hughes cover on Battle Fire jumped out at me. Of course Paul should not be much of a challenge to anyone.
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Paul G seems to love that open mouthed screaming woman theme a lot eh? And they have the Betty Page bangs mostly too. Can't blame him for liking those. ;)
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Hey I got Paul Gattuso right maybe lighting will strike twice with my Myron Fass guess
(http://narfstar.cwahi.net/images/CrimeMysteries3.jpg)
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Could be, narf,
but the true of the matter is, I don't know. However, having said that, the girl looks nicely drawn and I don't think of Fass as being that good. But, who know?
Sigh...
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Art ID can be fun. I have been going through some Harvey Horror for Roy's Alter Ego. Lee Elias can have some pretty telling eyes and hair. I would see a story or cover and immediately think all Elias. I saw a story that I thought looked like Elias but not quite. I checked the GCD and sure enough Elias was pencil with unknown inks. I found I quickly picked up Al Avison. That is the advantage of going over a lot of the same thing at one time. The problem is it will soon all become a big blur except the all Elias which can be pretty easy. It is fun to be good for a little while.
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I was looking at Star Studded Comics # 1 and came across Captain Combat. Both the Grand Comic-Book Database and Who's Who of American Comic Books list Bernard Baily as the artist. My first impression when I saw this story was that it looks simliar to John Giunta's style, based on what I've seen of his work from The Duke of Darkness, Flamingo, and other features credited to Giunta during that time period. I'm not familiar with Baily's artwork, so I'm wondering whether or not the Baily credit is accurate or not.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_kZwgYcSrHR8/SwMWJO_jOXI/AAAAAAAAAYM/mzO9gu29NnA/s800/001%20star%20studded.jpg)
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I would say JVJ can give a pretty definitive answer to that
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I'm not familiar with Baily's artwork, so I'm wondering whether or not the Baily credit is accurate or not.
It's Giunta, definitely.
--Ken Q
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I will seldom say definitely but it sure looks it to me. It also makes me wonder if Giunta did his own coloring. When you see Cole or Giunta there is a color scheme that is as distinctive or more so than the art.
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I'm not familiar with Baily's artwork, so I'm wondering whether or not the Baily credit is accurate or not.
It's Giunta, definitely.
--Ken Q
It's produced IN the Baily Shop, but the artist IS John Giunta. And, you know who is always a potential inker on Giunta at this point? Frank Frazetta. This is right around the time of Tally Ho #1, FF's first credited comic book work. BUT, remember, the only reason he got to do The Snowman in TH was because his assisting on Giunta's work was so precociously brilliant. He IS involved in several JG stories around this time.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Thanks everyone! For whatever reason, I'm becoming quite the fan of Giunta's work, and I've started grouping together on my pc any stories he worked on. I didn't want to put Captain Combat with the other stories if it wasn't by him. There are tons of artists whose work I haven't been exposed to yet, so there was no way I could have felt confident enough to say "GCD & WW must be wrong".
JVJ, if you don't mind my asking & picking your brain for a moment - Was Frazetta just the inker on the Snowman story? Did Giunta have anything to do with the other features in Tally-Ho (He-Man, Man in Black ... GCD only lists the Snowman story)?
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Thanks everyone! For whatever reason, I'm becoming quite the fan of Giunta's work, and I've started grouping together on my pc any stories he worked on. I didn't want to put Captain Combat with the other stories if it wasn't by him. There are tons of artists whose work I haven't been exposed to yet, so there was no way I could have felt confident enough to say "GCD & WW must be wrong".
JVJ, if you don't mind my asking & picking your brain for a moment - Was Frazetta just the inker on the Snowman story? Did Giunta have anything to do with the other features in Tally-Ho (He-Man, Man in Black ... GCD only lists the Snowman story)?
I, too, am a big Giunta fan. The earliest I've seen him is in 1942 doing big foot stuff in Timely's Joker or Comedy Comics. His work at Harvey in the 1059s Horror titles is variable, but his best there rivals anything from any of the other Harvey artists.
The Snowman story is credited
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I, too, am a big Giunta fan.
Me too. At times his work was brilliant. I've heard that illness kept him from achieving consistency. Hence his use of assistants--particularly Stallman--that impeded his own style, IMHO. I believe it's been discussed here before, but Giunta was one of the near-greats whose best work has gone mostly unrecognized. His later work at Marvel probably impacted the perception of him as just another journeyman artist, but I think he was--at times--much more than that.
...while The Man in Black is traditionally attributed to Bob Fujitani, I believe it is more likely to me George Gregg. Giunta MIGHT have done some pencils/layouts on the Gregg story.
You're probably right again, Jim, but I've got a question/tossing out a possibility regarding Fuje:
While I haven't yet found anything signed by him in an identifiable (at least by me) Baily shop produced comic, I have found a few signed stories that appeared in comics with a Baily shop "presence". Specifically, a few of the Holyoke/Continental comics like CAT-MAN (which, perhaps not coincidentally, also contain George Gregg art in some issues). And then there's that "Captain Truth" story in GOLD MEDAL. I believe you attribute that to Gregg as well, but Ron Goulart flatly told me it was "definitely Bob Fujitani". Did Gregg and Fuje ever work together? Is there that much of a resemblance between their styles at the time? Baily routinely employed freelancers and I've wondered if Fuje may have been one at times.
--Ken Q
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Jim, you're a wealth of information!
The Snowman story is credited
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I think Charles Voight would have worked solo. He's an old-timer with much more experience than Giunta. He goes back to 1908 with a strip that lasted for 20 years. It's unlikely that he would have needed help. It may simply be that he "aped" the design/layout style of the shop that hired him - i.e. Baily, whose mainstay artist was Giunta.
It's possible that Tally-Ho was released several times in hopes of increased sales returns. Since there are three distinct printings, and the "blacked out indicia versions have no dates, it's impossible for us to be certain of what happened and when. Welcome to the can of worms.
Ken, I've seen SIGNED George Gregg that, unsigned, I would have ID'd as Fuje. Whether they worked together or Gregg was simply enamored by the Fuje style (and a great copyist), I don't know. More worms...
This Man in Black art is grotesque in a way that Fuje isn't. Not that Fuje can't be grotesque, but just this doesn't have his approach, IMHO. There's an underlying drawing style that looks more like Gregg (or Giunta/Gregg) to me and the finishes are Fuje-esque, but, again, not quite right. I know that there is some Fuje connection with some comics that Baily Shop worked on, but as you say, the same can be said of Gregg, who also has some connection with the Ferstadt Shop. Much puzzlement, eh?
Would you like those worms baked or stir-fried?
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I'm just enjoying the meal. Unfortunate that much will never be know definitively and how many of us would love to know. Any idea on Giunta coloring his work? Could be just Baily shop but it does seem that his work does stand out.
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I think Charles Voight would have worked solo.
Generally I'd agree with this, Jim, but Voight had at least one known collaboration with Mo Weiss. Check out this page on Heritage Auction's site:
http://comics.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=823&Lot_No=42536&src=pr
And sometimes Voight's art looked more like Voight than at other times. For instance, the "Red Rogue" story in STAR STUDDED. I'm pretty sure that's Voight in there somewhere, but other panels barely look like him at all. Where's his gorgeous penwork? Don't know if that's Weiss assisting, but I thought I'd point it out.
It's possible that Tally-Ho was released several times in hopes of increased sales returns. Since there are three distinct printings, and the "blacked out indicia versions have no dates, it's impossible for us to be certain of what happened and when. Welcome to the can of worms.
I know of one Baily comic that was DEFINITELY reprinted 5 years after it's first printing! I'm saving the details for my article, but your speculation is correct again!
Ken, I've seen SIGNED George Gregg that, unsigned, I would have ID'd as Fuje. Whether they worked together or Gregg was simply enamored by the Fuje style (and a great copyist), I don't know.
and
I know that there is some Fuje connection with some comics that Baily Shop worked on, but as you say, the same can be said of Gregg, who also has some connection with the Ferstadt Shop.
Aiyeee! It's maddening! I know Fujitani was still alive a few years back. Maybe I can track him down and fill in this blank.
Would you like those worms baked or stir-fried?
Mmmm, worms...
--Ken Q
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I'm amazed at how hard it is to find information on the internet for many of these artists. I went to several sites looking for info on Giunta and came away with practically nothing beyond when he died (what was his illness?) and a couple of people he worked with. I was totally surprised that Wikipedia doesn't even have a short paragraph about the guy. Ditto Charles Voight ... just not a lot of information about their careers, which would be helpful for people like myself looking to learn more.
Narf - I, too, notice that Giunta's work had a certain "color-quality" to it. If he didn't do the coloring himself, maybe he had a favorite colorist?
Jim - It was just a thought regarding Giunta laying-out the He-Man story as I have zero knowledge of Voight's career & style beyond what little I just learned searching the internet.
For instance, the "Red Rogue" story in STAR STUDDED. I'm pretty sure that's Voight in there somewhere, but other panels barely look like him at all. Where's his gorgeous penwork?
That's Voight?! I found a sample of his work online somewhere, which was basically just drawings of women in different poses, but the Red Rogue story looks crude by comparison.
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A couple of things, Ken (and bchat),
You
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A wonderful discussion here guys - thanks very much for sharing your thoughts!
:)
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This is the kinda stuff that makes the GAC the place to be. No arguements just good thoughtful discussion.
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One of the things that makes that opinion more informed is simply the fact that I
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And you're absolutely right that you have more experience identifying artist than I do.
While this may be true, bchat, what I was trying to convey is that I have more experience LOOKING at old comics that most folks. My comic collection is boxed. It's not bagged and boarded, nor, gasp, slabbed. I look at my comics all the time as I'm constantly answering some question for somebody somewhere. Currently I'm:
1. Working with Hames Ware and Michael Vassallo on a Timely artist project
2. Working with John Benson on some Horror Comic credits
3. Working with Greg Sadowski on a couple of reprint books
4. Working with you on this thread
5. Anxiously awaiting the return of the GCD to enter some data on single-digit issues of Jumbo Comics.
In all instances, it involves opening up the comics and LOOKING at them. It is something that just doesn't happen all that much any more. Most people don't have the books or the access. Comics are seen as artifact not art. All the more NEED for GAC, IMHO. The more people that can look at the books, the more people that will notice different things, have different theories, recognize different artists, and make different connections. It can ONLY help to deepen our knowledge of comics. There is SO much that is unknown.
My personal theory is that there are as many UNKNOWN artists in pre-1960s comic books as there are known artists. Of course, the known artists are responsible for over 90% of the work, but the number of artists whom we don't know the names of is staggering. We need more eyes reviewing the stories. GAC is ESSENTIAL for the furtherance of comics history.
As you might be able to tell, the history of comics fascinates me. There's an absolute aspect of it that is like a science. The characters are of little interest to me. What's neat or interesting about one can be negated and refuted the next month by a different writer and what was sweet about a costume can disappear with a change of artist. There are no "facts" in the content of the medium. It is, after all, pure fiction. But the HISTORY of the medium is still to be fully written, and there IS an absolute TRUTH there somewhere. We simply have to discover it somehow. The more researchers on the team and on the trail of that truth, the better chance we have of finding it.
Keep reading and questioning. There is MUCH to be uncovered, recovered and discovered.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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And you're absolutely right that you have more experience identifying artist than I do.
While this may be true, bchat, what I was trying to convey is that I have more experience LOOKING at old comics that most folks.
I understood that you meant "looking at comics", but I would imagine that the by-product of all that "looking" is having a better feel for the various styles of many, many Golden Age artists. That's the "experience & expertise" I was referring to that I lack.
My comic collection is boxed. It's not bagged and boarded, nor, gasp, slabbed.
In defense of slabbed comics (which I personally want nothing to do with), I feel they have a place in the world, especially in regards to online sales. A buyer can feel a bit more confident that the comic they're purchasing isn't being misrepresented by a greedy seller.
Not that it's overly important to the topic at hand, but at least one-half to three-quarters of my collection is unbagged or in a bag that isn't taped closed. Most are in boxes, but there's usually a pile or two floating around my bedroom of stuff I'm reading or just flipping through. Comics printed on newsprint are kept in bags since I've seen first-hand how quickly an unbagged book can age. I like to enjoy my collection but I can't do that if they start falling apart. For better or worse, my current home is much less humid than the previous two environments my collection was exposed to.
Comics are seen as artifact not art.
I really want to pretend that that statement isn't true, and I would like to think that people who are buying "slabbed" comics are popping the cases open and reading the books.
All the more NEED for GAC, IMHO. The more people that can look at the books, the more people that will notice different things, have different theories, recognize different artists, and make different connections. It can ONLY help to deepen our knowledge of comics. There is SO much that is unknown. ... We need more eyes reviewing the stories. GAC is ESSENTIAL for the furtherance of comics history.
I agree that GAC is a tremendously important resource, basically putting thousands of books at someone's fingertips, whether they're working on a comic-related history project, using the books for reference to create their own comic stories, putting together a collection of their favorite character's appearances, researching the career of a certain creator or just a fan looking for something fun to read. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to gather all these books that someone would want to look at, especially if all they want to do is view a Statement of Ownership or the Indicia.
I also think it's important to preserve the books before they all fall apart. As I've said before somewhere else, my copy of Blue Bolt v2 n4 was falling apart in my hands as I was scanning it. If these books aren't available in digital form somewhere, they might disappear altogether and then nobody gets to enjoy them.
As you might be able to tell, the history of comics fascinates me. There's an absolute aspect of it that is like a science. The characters are of little interest to me. What's neat or interesting about one can be negated and refuted the next month by a different writer and what was sweet about a costume can disappear with a change of artist. There are no "facts" in the content of the medium. It is, after all, pure fiction. But the HISTORY of the medium is still to be fully written, and there IS an absolute TRUTH there somewhere. We simply have to discover it somehow. The more researchers on the team and on the trail of that truth, the better chance we have of finding it.
Keep reading and questioning. There is MUCH to be uncovered, recovered and discovered.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
I certainly understand the fascination you have regarding the history of comics. I have an idea for a "project" that I want to devote some time to completing. Totallly unrelated to Golden Age Comics, it does involve a specific line of comics from nearly 20 years ago, asking people questions and doing some fact-gathering for whoever might be interested in reading the finished product. Since the line of comics this involves was produced before the internet was what it is today, there is seriously very little information to discover online that I haven't gotten from the comics themselves, so I have to do some hunting, and I look forward to doing that. It's not the same level as "The History of Comics", but I can relate to the thrill of discovery involved in investigating something that isn't widely known and uncovering facts most people aren't aware of.
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Just a quick question - Jim, could you look at this crime mag cover and give me your thoughts?
It has a vague Matt Baker feel to me in the woman's pose.
True Cases of Women in Crime 1953-01:
http://i38.tinypic.com/9ljpr6.jpg
From Darwination's great blog - http://tinyurl.com/yjxzq48
-Yoc
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Just a quick question - Jim, could you look at this crime mag cover and give me your thoughts?
It has a vague Matt Baker feel to me in the woman's pose.
True Cases of Women in Crime 1953-01:
http://i38.tinypic.com/9ljpr6.jpg
From Darwination's great blog - http://tinyurl.com/yjxzq48
-Yoc
It's possible (even likely), Yoc,
given the year of publication. Now if the publisher was St. John, that would just about clinch it. There's some Baker feels to the men's faces, too, but a painting brings different characteristics to the forefront, and I'm not that proficient at ID'ing Baker's paintings - he's done so few that I know of.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Thanks for checking it Jim.
The year is right but without anymore info it's only a gut feeling. I'll ask Darwin if he has anymore scans from it.
-Yoc
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Just heard back from Darwin and here's what he says about this particular magazine title -
I like that one too! The girl does look a little Baker-ish, but I think this is an artist by the name of Howell Dodd who was doing some painted covers around this time for some of the crime mags:
http://www.americanartarchives.com/dodd.htm (http://www.americanartarchives.com/dodd.htm)
The Women in Crime title is kind of funky, it started as Women in Crime but sometimes appears as True Cases of Women in Crime or True Stories of Women in Crime. The only 2 issues scanned so far are here:http://tinyurl.com/ybhtcw6 (http://tinyurl.com/ybhtcw6)
Nice for Darwin to get back to us so fast.
-Yoc
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Just heard back from Darwin and here's what he says about this particular magazine title -
I like that one too! The girl does look a little Baker-ish, but I think this is an artist by the name of Howell Dodd who was doing some painted covers around this time for some of the crime mags:
http://www.americanartarchives.com/dodd.htm (http://www.americanartarchives.com/dodd.htm)
The Women in Crime title is kind of funky, it started as Women in Crime but sometimes appears as True Cases of Women in Crime or True Stories of Women in Crime. The only 2 issues scanned so far are here:http://tinyurl.com/ybhtcw6 (http://tinyurl.com/ybhtcw6)
Nice for Darwin to get back to us so fast.
-Yoc
Well, there you go, Yoc,
I'm unfamiliar with Howell Dodd's work, but it wouldn't surprise me if he had been looking at Matt Baker when he painted SOME of those covers. Both his drawing and painting styles seem pretty "fluid" - as if he drew on various inspirational sources depending on the assignment.
Learn something new every day...
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Dodd certainly had some risqu
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Dodd certainly had some risqu
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Just throwing this out there: Perhaps both Baker & Dodd's styles were influenced by the same artist? Sort of like how Jack Kirby has influenced many artists who, in some cases, got their start in comics a decade or two apart. I've seen a lot of similarities between Walt Simonson and Erik Larsen's work, and neither is shy about telling the world how much they loved Kirby's style. Did Larsen draw an artistic influence from Simonson? I don't know since I never read an interview where Larsen said as much, but "drawing" from Kirby would certainly lead him in that direction. Maybe that's the case with Dodd and Baker, in that they were both fans of an earlier artist that most people aren't aware of enough to make a connection.
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Just throwing this out there: Perhaps both Baker & Dodd's styles were influenced by the same artist? Sort of like how Jack Kirby has influenced many artists who, in some cases, got their start in comics a decade or two apart. I've seen a lot of similarities between Walt Simonson and Erik Larsen's work, and neither is shy about telling the world how much they loved Kirby's style. Did Larsen draw an artistic influence from Simonson? I don't know since I never read an interview where Larsen said as much, but "drawing" from Kirby would certainly lead him in that direction. Maybe that's the case with Dodd and Baker, in that they were both fans of an earlier artist that most people aren't aware of enough to make a connection.
No, bchat, Baker is a true original. There isn't another artist available in the pantheon that he might have copied. Having studied illustration art as it developed since 1870, take my word for it that Baker is Baker and not a diluted or modified someone else. That's one of the things that makes him so great.
The problem with Dodd's "style" is that is all over the place. It's not consistent. He's a very good artist, but he doesn't seem to have developed a truly personal style. One job looks sorta like Baker, one sorta like Sandy Kossin, one a bit like Norm Saunders, etc.
I'll stick by my interpretation of the influence. What you suggest is possible, but it would have to have been a really good artist (better that the ones he's influencing) and yet has not turned up on my (or anyone else's) radar. No such artist appears in Walt Reed's The Illustrator in America - in any of its three editions. It's extremely unlikely.
(|:{>
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It's not on topic but I thought this eBay listing would interest many that have posted in here.
Frank Motler posted it on a Yahoo list:
It's a two-page letter dated, Mar 26, 1973 from Allen Ulmer (2nd page not on view) to Jerry De Fuccio, which has interesting info on his career. Fox, Holyoke, Fawcett, Dell, etc. I'll attach the page at the bottom. Click the thumbnail to see the full sized version.
Here's the listing for those interested - http://tinyurl.com/yf5l8py (http://tinyurl.com/yf5l8py)
-Yoc
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I just happened to download a couple of Fox jungle titles looking for some good examples of Baker art. In particular All Top issues 8 and 11... well I guess those two aren't strictly "jungle" titles... and I happened to notice JVJ's comment regarding All Top #11. Definitely not Baker, but I did notice that the penciling on the Blue Beetle story looked very familiar in a few panels... could it be Al (Al Feldstein that is)! Ditto for the Beetle story in issue 8. I tried looking for art credits on the GCD for those and found nada. :)
I think he was freelancing for Fox (among others) at the time.
Btw, I was also trolling around the GCD for other nice looking "jungle-themed" covers and couldn't help but notice what a really wonderful artist Maurice Whitman was... didn't recall knowing much about him at the time, but (IMO) his work really stood out, especially his painted ??? covers for titles like Wambi. I also noticed that there were a lot of (later dated) covers for Jumbo and Jungle Comics that look like they might be by him as well.
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And while I'm at it... I was rereading the last few issues of The Vault of Horror and noticed this curiosity in the next to last panel of the last page of "Take Care" (VofH #37). Here's the Al Williamson panel in full...
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2672/takecarepg6panel6.jpg)
... and here is a close up of the corner of the painting on the wall...
(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3231/takecarepg6panel6closeu.jpg)
... could that be Torres' signature in the painting?
I think he did ink a few of Williamson's EC pieces... if it is, the GCD has the wrong inking credit (they credit Williamson as both penciler and inker).
I've also noticed that a few other issues are lacking credits for certain items. For instance, I'll go out on a limb here and state that I think these text illustrations, the first for "Cooler" (VofH #36), the other for "Pinch!" (VofH #38)...
(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/649/severintextillo.jpg)
... are done by Severin.
If anyone out there is an indexer for GCD I think it would be nice to update some of those entries... that is of course only if I'm right in the matters. ;D
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I'd say you're right on the Torres (good eyes!), dl,
but wrong on the Severin. JS is more controlled that these two text drawings, which are not particularly refined - probably quickies by Kamen (my best guess) or Feldstein.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I just happened to download a couple of Fox jungle titles looking for some good examples of Baker art. In particular All Top issues 8 and 11... well I guess those two aren't strictly "jungle" titles... and I happened to notice JVJ's comment regarding All Top #11. Definitely not Baker, but I did notice that the penciling on the Blue Beetle story looked very familiar in a few panels... could it be Al (Al Feldstein that is)! Ditto for the Beetle story in issue 8. I tried looking for art credits on the GCD for those and found nada. :)
I think he was freelancing for Fox (among others) at the time.
The problem with these stories, dl, is that the Iger Shop artists were VERY CONSCIOUSLY imitating Baker and Feldstein and a panel here or there is much more indicative of a swipe than of actual participation. When trying to ID the artist on a story, it's often more informative to ask "could Baker have drawn this badly?" than it is to ask "could Baker have drawn this one panel?" If the answer to the first question is "no" than you can pretty much eliminate Baker (or whoever) from the list of potential artists. It's VERY difficult to conjure up a scenario where a good artist who is working outside of the shop will somehow only draw one or two panels in a shop-produced job.
(|:{>
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Inker credit changed on GCD. Thanks Drusilla lives! if you would like credit there for the find you can send me the name you would like credited. Better yet you are welcome to become an indexer and make any changes needed yourself. New system is easy to use and you can now do as little or as much as you want no longer need to do whole books. Find an error or addition and just add it yourself. This goes for everyone reading this all are welcome to contribute to the GCD in its desire to be the premier site for comic research.
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Williamson collaborated with Torres (and Krenkel and Frazetta) on several stories. Torres could have inked the story or drawn backgrounds or any number of things. On the other hand he might not have done any more than this one panel. I suppose it's even possible that if Torres did any paintings or water colors, that Williamson put one of his paintings into the story and signed it himself as a kind of joke.
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Williamson collaborated with Torres (and Krenkel and Frazetta) on several stories. Torres could have inked the story or drawn backgrounds or any number of things. On the other hand he might not have done any more than this one panel. I suppose it's even possible that if Torres did any paintings or water colors, that Williamson put one of his paintings into the story and signed it himself as a kind of joke.
I went and looked at the story again, Jon, and it has Torres inking sporadically throughout. I missed that aspect of it when I did my Williamson checklist 39 (sh*t!) YEARS ago. I guess I've learned a few thinks since then... (One would ONLY hope.)
(|:{>
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You have a point JonTheScanner, I too had my doubts... afterall, it doesn't even appear to be a complete and proper spelling of his name (for one, it looks like it's missing an "r"). But now that I think about it, it's not just the scribble in the painting but the whole look of the art throughout the story. Compare this full page (page 5)...
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1019/takecarepg5.jpg)
... to this full page (page 7) from "A Sound of Thunder" (WSF #25)...
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5594/asoundofthunderpg7.jpg)
... the inking technique is the same IMHO, and this last page is from a known Williamson-Torres collaboration.
Heck, it was probably done around the same time (since the two comics were published within months of each other). I was sceptical before, but not now... I agree with Jim's assessment. Anyhow, just the fact that that scribble is there raises a flag IMO (in light of the proximity in time to the other work, and the inking style) and at the very least, I don't think you can leave the GCD inking entry solely to Williamson alone.
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Williamson collaborated with Torres (and Krenkel and Frazetta) on several stories. Torres could have inked the story or drawn backgrounds or any number of things. On the other hand he might not have done any more than this one panel. I suppose it's even possible that if Torres did any paintings or water colors, that Williamson put one of his paintings into the story and signed it himself as a kind of joke.
I went and looked at the story again, Jon, and it has Torres inking sporadically throughout. I missed that aspect of it when I did my Williamson checklist 39 (sh*t!) YEARS ago. I guess I've learned a few thinks since then... (One would ONLY hope.)
(|:{>
Once you add Torres into the Williamson-Frazetta mix, I don't think anyone can tell really (with any complete certainty) who inked what... Torres was known to be able to "ape" just about anyone (esp. Frazetta).
And interestingly, that also has baring on what you were talking about earlier Jim... guys like Torres just add another layer to the onion when trying to id art. Especially from some of the early "sweatshop-like" studios. It's not just all the artists who try to copy another artist's style... and do so badly. IMO there's also the problem of those who can do it well... as Torres could.
Edit: And (in a somewhat unrelated note) I'd add that even some of the best artists to ever work in comics also varied the quality of their work when freelancing to fit the compensation. In this regard Wood comes to mind... most of his work at EC was of the highest quality, at Avon very good, and overall good everywhere else IMO. Although he was such a unique genius that it never effected the process of identifying his work IMO.
In a roundabout way, I think this last point adds weight to the argument that the Williamson VofH piece is inked by Torres (that is, if it was inked by anyone besides Williamson himself). It was done for the same company, within the same time period and presumably for the same amount of money... and they would probably use the same working method for both. And if it (as I feel it does) resembles the WSF work, which gives Torres the inking credit, then IMO it cannot be ruled out that he did indeed ink the VofH piece as well.
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Inker credit changed on GCD. Thanks Drusilla lives! if you would like credit there for the find you can send me the name you would like credited. ...
Thanks narfstar but it wasn't anything really... perhaps you can just cite the GAC site and its discussion groups with the credit. :)
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... but wrong on the Severin. JS is more controlled that these two text drawings, which are not particularly refined - probably quickies by Kamen (my best guess) or Feldstein.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
For some reason those little doodles seem to remind me of some of the "looser" drawings he did on some of those envelopes and personal correspondences whose images accompanied your Severin "Checklist" in Squa Tront #11... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here Jim. :)
Btw, I didn't know you were the same JVJ that did all those articles in Squa Tront (I only picked up issues 10, 11 and 12 recently... honestly). My complements on a job (or more accurately, several jobs) well done! :)
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The inks on most Williamson EC stories can probably never be isolated to only ONE person, guys. And, yes, dl, I'm the same JVJ (hopefully the one and only) as in those Squa Tront issues - and thank you for the kudos. To be frank, I actually CAN figure out if Torres is present on a story - probably 9 times out of 10 (though not, as you say, to ID every component artist on each and every panel). He's a decent mimic, but he also has his own distinct style that tends to come through up until about 1960. Hard to mistake him for Frazetta - though the common roots are certainly there. The VofH story is definitely inked by Williamson, Torres and quite likely Roy Krenkel - you can read my bio of him HERE. http://www.bpib.com/illustra2/krenkel.htm (http://www.bpib.com/illustra2/krenkel.htm)
You're certainly right about artist work varying over time, and some, like Wood, are more recognizable than others - though WW's very earliest work is VERY difficult to isolate and the work towards the end of his life even more so - as he left more and more to assistants and copyists. You can read my bio of him HERE. http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/wood.htm (http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/wood.htm)
I think some of the variation was, as you say, to match the compensation, but quite a bit of the change over time is, I believe, just an example of repetition and familiarity and the need to speed up to make a living in a competitive business. Some few, like John Severin (and John Buscema when he was inking his own work) hit their stride early on and maintained high and consistent standards throughout their careers. Others, like Wood, took every shortcut he could after about 1960.
Regarding the guess on the EC sketches: it's more the construction of the figures/faces that makes me discard JPS as a likely candidate. It's just not how he would draw it - inking notwithstanding.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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So I should change the VofH #37 inker to add Krenkel?
I do not care for Wood's art on Daredevil but love his work with Ditko on Heroes Inc
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Thanks for those links JVJ... and once again, nicely done. :)
I forgot about Krenkel... and especially his close association with Williamson. It seems I, like many others today, just think of Frazetta when Williamson's name pops up. But as you point out in your Krenkel bio, Roy had a tremendous influence on both men... thanks for the reminder.
And btw, those old illustrations by Vierge, Coll, Booth, J. Allen St. John and Lindsay are outstanding. No wonder they were such a strong influence on Krenkel... as well as Frazetta and Williamson. Personally I really liked those watercolors of Lindsay's... his oils look good, but those watercolors are impressive. Wonderful use of color with good technique... and amazingly vibrant, again considering the (watercolor) medium.
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Does anyone else think that the artist for Commodore Amobord may be the same artist for Super-Magician? Looks like work I have seen elsewhere even if not. The lettering looks familiar also.
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Baffling Mysteries 18. When I saw this cover the girl jumped out at me as drawn by Jim Mooney. I checked and low and behold he was working at Ace during this time. Could I actually be right?
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Because of some horror discussion on DCM I was looking Weird Chills
over. Voice of Doom jumped out at me as Hughes. I checked GCD I
noticed that you have all the stories in Weird Chills 3 as pencil and
inks Eugene Hughes. I would say by looking at them that the first two
may have a different inker, especially Clumsy. Either that or Hughes
was in a major rush to get Clumsy finished :) Hughes is not great but
usually better than that. What do you think? Also The Gorilla in WC 1 is the same pair as Clumsy.
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Here is some work to ponder
Captain Science stories in CS 4and 5 are labeled as Orlando and Wood.
Some sequences are labeled Orlando pencil Wood ink while others put
Orlando and Wood in both spots. One sequence that is labeled
Orlando/Wood is not signed and does not look Wood to me. I think most
of those signed show heavy Wood. Any ideas they can be seen at
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=12353
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=12353
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=9655
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=9655
I also think the Splash for this story in 7 is Wood layout or Pencil
and the Logo is Wood. https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=25435
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Garzan the Magnificent screams Mike Sekowsky. I don't think that I am wrong on this one.
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Garzan the Magnificent screams Mike Sekowsky. I don't think that I am wrong on this one.
Check GCD on this one, narf. It's who they say. Most of the Harvey Horror credits are taken from JVJ/Don Rosa indexes done 25 years ago.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Thanks Jim. I did check GCD and it had Jack Abel ? inks. I thought surely at least the inks were Sekowsky. Those dark forehead lines especially as well as overall look.
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The inks do remind me of Abel at times. Did Sekowsky ever do any inking in the 1950s? It seems everything I run across that he has pencilled is inked by someone else.
Curious
Joe
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I'm unaware of any post-'40s Sekowsky inking, Joe,
but, then, I'm not certain that I would know what to look for.
(|:{>
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Just checked out that GARZA, narf - am I nuts, or did I get a whiff of Nostrand in that art job? Maybe some last minute pitching in, or possibly just Nostrand's style rubbing off on his fellow Harvey artists?
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I hate the pencil/inker model. This topic made me look at some pics. It made me realize that it was probably Jack Abel inks that I was seeing as Sekowsky. Not sure where I got the two crossed in my brain.